ISCA interview with Fung
In preparation of this year's gathering of the International Systemic Constellations Association, I'm doing short interviews with systemic coaches, trainers, presenters, and frontrunners in the constellations field.
READ THE INTERVIEW
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So, I'm here with Fung! What's your full name?
Cheng Lap Fung.
We're in Koch at the moment at the intensive. I have this first question, which is difficult to answer for a lot of constellators. It's namely this: How do you explain constellations to someone that doesn't know about it? And also: What does constellations mean to you?
Okay, so the question is actually a normal question, especially from a country like China. So, we explain it in different ways. For ordinary people and also I explain it in a way that young people can understand it. So there's actually two parts. One part is a part of methodology. The other part is part of theory. The bottom part of methodology is quite easy, actually. In the constellations, you use representatives, to represent the members of a family, from the real family, therefore from a real client. And from there, we understand something about their family and we do something for them and the family changes. They may get healthier, more love flowing, and much more harmony. This is brought into the family. So that is the result. But usually, the people will not challenge the result. They can see the positive result. Instead, people challenge how people can represent somebody else. That is the most important thing.
So they are not challenging the result but they are challenging how it works?
Yes, how is it possible! Is that possible? Is this real? So, when faced with this, I'm using a metaphorical way to explain constellations. What is representation? The metaphor is: Let's make a constellation of each of us and we see each of us as an iPhone, as if we are a mobile communication device. Each of us have our programs. We have an IOS. We have our data. That is equivalent to our mental model. But if I and you are both an iPhone, how can we share amongst each other? We need to go online. We have a lot of data up there online. Now, the data of your iPhone, they will not disappear. Because everything is backing up somewhere, up there. We call it the iCloud drive. So, if you would try to represent me, or you want to understand my data, what you need is not really change your phone. You do not need to steal my phone. I just need to give you my username and the password. That means I'm giving you the authorization, that, from your device, you can download my data up there. So, in this case and in this way, representation is actually that I'm allowing somebody else to download data from their family iCloud drive. So, the data will be downloaded and we will act it out. The information, you may call it a part of human consciousness, you'll reconsider. Actually, that's a real change in our definition of human consciousness. We think that human consciousness just belongs only to the individual. This is not true. That's not how it works. Because, once you change your definition, human consciousness is kind of an iCloud human consciousness.
So, actually, you're also saying that once we update some of our own software, then it might update something up there as well?
Yes, whether you want it or not, your iPhone will download something from up there! Even if you don't want it. It will download it to here. And there's apps on it that you don't want, do you? There's a lot of excess apps and unwanted viruses, and stuff like that. So when you've accidentally downloaded some bug problematic programs, if you've downloaded some virus, excessive data, then your iPhone becomes very slow. It becomes useless. In a human being that means that if you have already downloaded some data from other people, for example from your family, you've downloaded too much data from your grandmother for example or from your grandfather, then the data will fully occupy your whole iPhone. You may think yourself like a grandmother or a grandfather. That's what we call identification! That kind of representation is that we represent somebody else. And that we download too much data from somebody. You know, it's in our daily lives! So the constellation is really about how we see this downloading procedure. How much data do we download? We just take something useful and keep it there. Those viruses and bug programs, we fix here, down here, and we upload it again, and everything will change up there. So, in that way, we can explain why we do something here and something happens somewhere else in the other way. Because it's online! Everybody is considered to be part of iCloud. So, what we're doing here, we upload a program and the program will affect everybody. So that's my explanation on the methodology of a constellation. In this way of explaining, we need to assume in a metaphorical way, human consciousness actually connects us with each other. It's more like an iCloud and it's everywhere. So, if you really want to connect with somebody, we just need to know the username, password, authorization, and then we can download it. So, that's a radical change of definition with regards to human consciousness.
I can imagine! It's the most concrete explanation I've had so far! Congratulations!
Okay. Thank you very much!
So with regards to these interconnections, there's also a wider community of facilitators, systemic coaches, trainers, and what you have. So I'm quite curious about how you feel connected to that wider community?
At the moment, I connect mostly with the constellators in my own country.
So, that's China, right?
Yes, actually I've invited a lot of people to China. I invited Bert Hellinger himself to Hong Kong in 2006. I've been working as his translator over 3 years time. I've translated three to four workshops for him. And then I've invited people like Gunthard Weber, Hunter Beamont, Jacob Schneider, Hebamme, Karin Breuer, Guni Baxa (read or watch an interview with her here), Victoria Sneh. And actually a lot of people came to China, upon my invitation, to do a training there. So, on that level, it's very okay. But from the perspective of connecting with the community outside of China, for example with Europe and America, and South America, or other places, it's not there yet. At the moment I cannot find a common thing to come together. In my own imagination is that, maybe in the future, there could be some conference, more conferences on the community. Maybe, this year an international one in Europe. Maybe next year it will be in America. And sometimes maybe one year in Asia. In this way we can actually get the community together.
It's like a global community?
Exactly! This community is about how we can share our experience and we can see a lot of different ways of working. Also, last year, we set up an association of systemic constellations inside China. We have an academy also, the first time ever!
Ok, great! Congratulations!
We have our own curriculum. We have our own standards. We even have some written tests for the people who are learning constellations, nationwide. That's the first time in China as well! So this kind of things is actually, it would be nice if the wider community can come together, we can share, whatever we have already, and we complement each other. I think that's good!
Yes, so that's also my question: What would you invite the wider community to do more of or to do less of? Is that this thing of sharing more?
Yes, I would like to share more! Sharing more is a good way. It is also the first generation constellators, they have done a lot. At the same time, there's still some things not sufficient enough. For example, the teaching or training structures. What would be the necessary knowledge? What is the common knowledge that needs to be there?
Yes, I agree!
And the second part of it is culture-specific. Some knowledge is specific to a a certain culture. That is a difference! So, for the first part [the curriculum], it's not yet there. Some years ago I worked with ISCA, I was the chairman of the curriculum committee. At that time, I proposed something. We have a list of that. But I don't know the progress later on. What is it? So, it would be nice if we would have some kind of exchange. At the moment, if communities, of course it's nice to grow in diverse ways, at the same time, we can come together, not necessarily agree on something, but we share something. We pick out some common elements of something. I think that would be good! It will be saving time and energy. And that would become a worldwide or more common standard. That would be good for a community. That's my vision. That's my idea about this part of the future. How we can work with community? It is not really about "we learn from this or we learn from that" but we each exchange. We have to dialogue. We have this cheering.
So, I happen to know that they're working on this now, so I'm hoping to hear more about it as well! So, with regards to the bigger trends, like the community and its evolvement, how it has developed, is there something you're particularly excited about? This is the last question by the way.
For example, in this conference, in this intensive, I've come to realise that there's more young people joining the workshops and enjoying the training. And actually, this is not very usual here. It's like in China, most people who join my workshop are around 30-40 years old. A pretty young generation. But in the worldwide community, what I saw, maybe the first generation of facilitators, they are already over 70 years old. And the second generation is 60 or 50 years old.
So, what I got excited about is "Oh, now, the younger generation has come up!" They are more energetic. They are more creative. And also the different ways of expressing constellations, there's a lot of variety. And, that variety actually comes from the younger group, not from the older group. I think it's very nice! That's one point: the younger generation comes up. And the second point I would like to say is this: Up to this moment, family constellations, we usually look back on the family's history. One's personal history, family history, and to see what trauma's, what guilts, what kind of things we have gone through. What kind of burden is now in your body? And now, with this technology we can either face our guilt, our shame, or we can relieve ourselves from trauma. Or we can heal ourselves and we can also develop a certain kind of personality structure and alter it. Some kind of spiritual enlightenment also. But, that's it! How about the future? This is something I'd really like to mention is that there is not many constellations about the future. About the problem of the earth. About the problem the human race is facing. If the weather is gonna change, the climates change, the earth is destroyed, we'll stop doing constellations! We're always going back to history. Why? What would be the future of the family constellations or of constellations in general? In organisations it's easier [to see], but in family constellations it's not that clear yet. Let me give you an example. In China, traditionally, men are more powerful than women. The cultural concept is that the woman is inferior to the man [while] now it's changing! Women are coming up quickly. Even the social status, just as you saw with the men, is even higher! And we have this population ratio. It's a very interesting statistic: men have the authority, but on the other side, there's 100 women. That's the ratio! So, that means, in the future, there will be much more men than women. So it's not uncommon now that the ladies tend to have two men. They have a man inside and at home and a lover outside. It's quite true. It's a very recent phenomena. It's because the ratio of men to women differs so much! So, in this way, that means, they know, in the next 30-50 years, there will be a radical change in this Chinese, family system. The woman's positions are moving up and men's positions are moving down. What will be the implication for the coming generation? The kind of orders of love, based on one man and one woman, the small, the nuclear family one, is maybe facing a radical change according to this social movement or this social change. So, there's something about it, but still, so far I can see little research or investigation, exploration about all these things. So I believe that the future is going to change it a lot. Maybe not just one man, one woman, maybe have some variations of family systems coming up. You have homosexual couples, you have these multiple types of marriages. That could be! So in face of this kind of social changes, what would be the "correct" order of love? It's very difficult to say! But we're really facing this kind of things in the future. How can we, in this kind of social environment, deal with our partners, what happens to our children, what will be appropriate for them and their growth? What would be the future generations? Stuff like that! It's very interesting. I think those things challenge quite imminently [our work]. We need to face that.
Well, I'm curious! Keep me updated!
And see you then!
Thank you very much.